samedi 25 janvier 2003

En direct du wiki de Mike (plus cool que les viandards)

Oui bon je sais :) La page LangueFrançaise sur DebianGNULinux a tourné en discussion sur les ?WikiMultilingues ... ça arrive les dérapages ;) Et non, je ne sais pas parler l'espéranto. Ceci dit, je ne pensais pas que ma bête petite page de pseudo promotion de DebianGNULinux aurait de tels effets ! -- ArnaudFontaine
7:52:37 PM  #   

Nouvelle motorisation : Championne du Monde !!!

Chou blanc ! Désolé, je n'ai trouvé aucune occurence dans les entrailles du roux cybercarnet en recherchant kiki.

La grande tu viens quand nous aider sur le wiki ?

7:47:03 PM  #   

Froglog MeatBall ? Arnaud mène la danse...

CategoryGlobalization. started listing some pages [Meatball Wiki]

La discussion copiée-collée ci après ayant été déplacée je ne sais où par Alex, je me permets de la restituer pour féliciter Arnaud créateur et défenseur francophone chez la communauté des communautés !

I tried to refactor the French, but my French isn't that strong. I'm not entirely sure that we need a French version, but whatever. Besides, I question the wisdom of describing Linux distributions on MeatballWiki. -- SunirShah

:I wrote this page in French because I'm french and like to read info in French :) So, IMHO, we really need a French version ! -- ArnaudFontaine

::I am not sure if this argument holds. I mean, do you really appreciate having parts in german, japanese, chinese, spanish, russian and whatever languages in MeatBall as well? Although I can read French (write only with faults) and am actually using a few French sites on the web occasionally, I don't really like to navigate through a language mix in one and the same wiki. Why not start a French MeatballWiki instead? I like how they did the internationalisation in Wikipedia. -- DavidAndel

::Ok ... <troll>let's be a bit serious. If you really think MeatBall is "EnglishOnlyWiki?", I think we, non US people, should leave this wiki ... It's that stupid ...</troll> When I find a page in a language I don't understand on a multi-language wiki/site/anything, I just think "Hey ! it's a cool place with people from everywhere !" and I ask the author if he can write, at least a summary in English. But I will NEVER think that we don't need pages in his language ... -- ArnaudFontaine

::EnglishOnlyWiki? doesn't equate US only people. I certainly would enjoy reading through a good translator each and every language used on this planet, and have hopes that this will be possible someday. Currently this is not. Wikis are beautiful because the allow easy linking to other wikis. Content on a wiki is the most important peice. Not being able to read it means that it becomes noise for the mostly english speaking/reading wikizens at this wiki. I enjoy the thought of creating a MeatallWiki? that is French-based, it has hopes in my mind of merging somehow/sometime down the road. Best, MarkDilley

Arnaud, I'm not sure what the right answer to this is, but we have not considered what impact changing MeatballWiki to be a MultilingualWiki would have at all. For now, the site is English, as that is a) my language and as founder I obviously wrote in English, b) the technical language of the Internet. In the long term, that distinction will not be tenable, but that doesn't mean we have a realistic solution to the problem at the moment. -- SunirShah

:Sunir, I agree with you about the fact that MeatBall might be an English wiki because a) and b). What I can't agree with is when one tell me that because he doesn't speak a language, blah blah blah. So yes, MeatBall is an English wiki but ... there is a french speaking community (aka LangueFrançaise) growing up on it. So what to do ? Maybe marking french content with the "LangueFrançaise" tag ? You know that such places like wikis, mooses, muds, etc, are made by users ;) Is MultilingualWiki the next challenge for MeatballWiki ??! --ArnaudFontaine

:: Arnaud, I'm German (well, exactly Austrian) and there are a number of German contributors here at MeatBall. The reason we didn't create German pages is, that we would exclude the majority of members from our "private" German discussions. If we want to get maximum feedback and collaboration, we have to use English. If we wanted to create a separate cooperation space, we would just create a new wiki for this purpose. So the main question is: are you just discussing here, because you don't have another wiki space at hand? -- HelmutLeitner

It's not beneficial to have disparate communities in the same space mutually ghettoized by a tag. Wikis are made by the community, not merely by individual users. How do you connect people writing in separate languages? Using an disparate languages violates OpenProcess. In daily life it's considered rude because you are excluding others in front of their faces; similarly here it's disruptive because it separates the community. Choosing a language is choosing that mental wall that others cannot cross. It may be an UnlockedDoor, but it is still a closed door. Building a door down the centre of MeatBall would be a first.

The MeatBall way is to confront these problems pragmatically and find simple and humane solutions to the problem. The solution isn't trivial. At base you always have the RightToLeave and form your own community and we have our expectation to stay because we have invested our effort into this space. That is the simplest solution, but it is not very productive. The second simplest solution is to assume the null hypothesis and just start hacking away in disparate languages. This strategy is even less productive as it disrupts the very reason you are attracted to this place: the community here.

Essentially, every community has its own public accessible to all in that community, but it's not necessary to be open to everyone. This is no loss as there is always a higher-level public available. For instance, each culture in Toronto has its own community embedded in the city of Toronto, in turn embedded in Southern Ontario, then Ontario, then English Canada, then Canada, then North America, then the Western Bloc, eventually culminating in the GlobalVillage. On the other hand, it's death to close the community off to other groups.

To solve this problem, we all need to be wider minded. There are any number of solutions. One may be to limit non-English discussions to chitchat between similarly spoken individuals, projects that are intrinsically bound to a certain language (e.g. FrogLog), and translations of DocumentMode (e.g. CarnetWeb), while the rest is considered the wider public and should be in the public language English. This leaves the problem that people who do not speak English at all will join the community and not have access to the public and, more importantly, vice versa. Another is to just let MeatballWiki become multilingual, hoping that multilingual individuals will transfer knowledge and values across boundaries. Another is to rely on TechnologySolutions like machine translation. Another is to separate the site into separate communities. Another is to leave MeatballWiki alone and let other people set up their own communities which we can link together using InterWiki, etc.

And so on. I can't do all the brainstorming here. -- SunirShah

:Sunir, the first way you show is the actual MeatballWiki way, isn't it ? I agree with the fact I should have wrote this page about DebianGNULinux in English :) But this page was immediately translated in English by someone else ! Isn't it the first step toward a MultilingualWiki ? -- ArnaudFontaine

How about we all learn Esperanto and switch to that? :P -- StephenGilbert
:Bona ideo! Por la nuna subjekto, vidu: ;) (On the off chance that anyone here is curious about learning EsperantoLanguage?, see ) -- BrionVibber

Remercions Arnaud pour son talent de "wikiste". Parviendrons-nous à maintenir la micro-communauté francophone en vie ? Des allemands du Jura arrivent !
Stephanie, serais-tu prête à venir rejoindre ce bazar. Je ne comprends plus rien :))) En tout cas tu avais raison steph : les wikis sont marrants quand il y a du monde !

Si je comprends bien, il faudrait  fusionner les deux pages WebLog et CarnetWeb qui semblent semer quelque troubles ? Mais là il faudrait un peu plus de participants ?

3:58:54 PM  #